My guest Kathryn Barbash, PsyD, is a mom of four and a clinical psychologist.
Kathryn wants to empower parents in this wild ride. Find out how she ditched the idea that she's always going to be calm (which ironically allowed her to be more calm). Get ready to laugh and maybe cry with these funny and honest parenting stories. Learn how to be a more mindful parent, even on the messiest of mornings.
Hear her honest stories, including the hilariously chaotic 'flour fiasco,' and gain insights on how to manage morning routines and emotional outbursts with kindness, creativity, and self-compassion. Watch, listen, or read the transcript below…
Transcript:
Kathryn: I'm not a morning person, so getting everyone out of the house, getting all of the different places, is stressful. I used to get really frustrated. We'd have these negative interactions, and then I just feel so crappy. I'm sending my kids off to school and we've just been sharp with each other and rushing. I've become more flexible, but I think that critical voice is always around. It doesn't matter how much work you do. It's going to show up. It's helpful to be able to interpret that signal, as opposed to just getting stuck in, I did it again. I yelled at them.
Kate: I sometimes say that the one parenting skill I've really mastered is repair…
Kathryn Barbash is a mom to four kids and a clinical psychologist living in Pennsylvania. After a decade of clinical practice working with kids, teens, and families in school and medical settings, she shifted to being a stay at home parent and writing the parenting newsletter, Mindful Mom in the Mud, which is how we met on Substack.
Which is so awesome. I love meeting people through my blog. That's just a wonderful connection that we've made. We have a lot in common, a lot of similar interests, neurodiversity and of course, mindfulness. Kathryn offers the perspective of both a psychologist and a parent. She wants to empower parents in this wild ride.
You say, “Even with my professional experience, it has been a bumpy road. I want people to know that the mess is okay.” Yeah. It would be so nice if we just knew that, right? We just knew it's okay and we don't have to be perfect parents.
Yes.
You also wrote, “We have such a heightened stress level. When kids need support and we become their teachers, therapists, advocates, and more. I hope to help people slow down so they have the resources to make intentional choices without the pressure to get it right.” I really love that because we either win or we learn, right?
There really isn't perfection when it comes to parenting. Even if you've been a parent four times, bravo, each one is different, right?
Kathryn: Yes. Oh, yes. Very different.
Kate: You have a pretty broad range of ages of kids, is that right?
Kathryn: Yeah, so we have a toddler, preschooler, a 1st grader and a 3rd grader.
Kate: Okay. So they're all pretty young.
Kathryn: Yeah. A lot going on.
Kate: And there's some neurodiversity in there, right?
Kathryn: Yeah. Autism and ADHD in the mix. We say that sometimes everyone's neurodiversity is kind of pinging off of each other because people have different needs and preferences. So yes, it's exciting.
The Flour Fiasco: A Lesson in Letting Go
[00:03:32] Kate: I like that. I would love to hear your story of the flour fiasco.
Kathryn: This was just a perfect example of the parenting mess.
Just as I'm sure many parents do, trying to find activities to keep the kids busy. . It was a summer day. We had recently done some baking and they were enjoying flour from the sensory perspective. So it was like, Oh, let's do a flour sensory bin outside. Everyone was bored, so everyone wanted to participate, which was probably a clue that it was going to get out of hand pretty quickly.
But and at this point, I know my children well enough. I have the experience to know that chances are this will, This'll go awry. No one's really going to play nicely in the sensory bin. But even so, moving forward, they're playing in it outside. I thought I was prepared, had extra trash bag down, all of that type of stuff.
Quickly it devolves into a flour fight and there's flour everywhere. And it was one of those moments where I really wanted to be. That calm mom and just be like, Oh, how funny, got out of hand, but everyone's enjoying themselves. And I was not, I was so angry. Huge mess. They start squabbling too, because this one's thrown flour at this one.
And then it becomes real to me that no one can go in the house because they have so much flour on them. They're going to make footprints through the house, everyone needs a shower. So we had to keep everyone lined up outside, get them in one by one for a bath or a shower. It was a perfect moment where I really wanted to be that like calm, collected mom. And I was angry and frustrated and it really sat with me. I think in general, we get the message that we need to be calm all the time, or shoot for that, at least, and I feel like that message has not been helpful for me. And I wanted to share that with other people, like it's okay.
Even with my professional training, my knowledge about self regulation and feelings and all of that, I have this idea in my brain that I'm supposed to be calm and that I can be calm all the time, when it's total chaos.
Kate: Yeah. It's not going to work out that way necessarily. No.
So just to clarify, when you felt frustrated and angry, what did you do in that moment?
Kathryn: I was probably pretty short with my kids and was not the empathic, caring mom: Oh, okay, everyone, we need to calm down. In my mind now, I view it as those times when you just get through it. You're not happy, not patient, clean everything up, still frustrated later. Probably made some comments of, we're never doing that again.
Kate: Blaming and shaming and yelling. I've done all those things. Yeah, like hanging on to it and feeling resentful and like stomping around. You guys, if you want to see the most adorable picture of Kathryn's toddler covered in white, you will have to go on to her blog to see that. There's an incentive for you. I highly recommend you read that piece. It really resonated with me because, when things start to get chaotic, something about our own kids, when things feel out of control, I know for me, it pushes my buttons. It is not like it is with other people's kids. It's different. Yeah.
Kathryn: Definitely. I felt, having been a therapist, was a calm therapist, had sat in many tense moments and big emotions for other families and felt that was really, of course, important part of my professional role. To be the calm one in the room and help people through that. But the surprise when I had my own kids that I didn't feel that way, or the emotions would become bigger than expected because yeah, it's different when it's 24 7 and it's your kid and you're thinking about all of the things from in the moment frustration to Oh my gosh, my kid did XYZ. What does that mean for the future ?
The Second Arrow
[00:07:59] Kate: Yeah. And I love the concept of the second arrow. Not all our listeners are gonna know about it. Would you like to explain the second arrow?
Kathryn: Yeah. So this is a Buddhist concept, mindfulness concept of the first arrow is the thing that happens. The suffering, the event. The flour exploding. But it could even be you blew up at the kids, you yelled, right? Whatever the thing is that kind of brings the suffering. And then the second arrow is that verbal beating or just this frustration with yourself, the shame about, I yelled, or this got out of control.
I should have done something differently. I'm so bad. That voice: everyone else would handle this well.
Kate: There was a book out recently, ‘Mom Rage’. I don't know if you have read any of Minna Dubin. I really resonated with it because it's so much pressure on whoever the primary parent is in our culture to keep it all together. To keep all these different things going at once. If also we're stressed and worried about our kids and they're acting differently than we expected they would be acting at a certain age, or whatever it is that's going on, that again, it's pushing our buttons and we get angry, there is that downward spiral of shame that happens. And it's almost like a cultural taboo. There's no grace, I feel like, for moms who get really angry. Yeah. Like I've never taken out my mom rage specifically on my kid I don't think. I mean yelling, yeah, but nothing like terrifying. But I have experienced that rage and just channeled it into something else. So I can really relate to that. I don't know if you have any thoughts about that. I almost feel like being pigeonholed into needing to be the calm parent all the time pushes us sometimes into that polarity of the rage.
Kathryn: Oh yeah. I think the more you fight against that, against the negative feeling or feeling frustrated or expressing that frustration, the more you put yourself in that place where you are more likely to experience rage. As opposed to perhaps in the beginning, you were frustrated and the more you can't express that, just frustration with whatever's going on, the experience. And it's, I think it's scary too, for people to feel like how did I get so mad about something that my kid did, and that doesn't feel motherly, because we have all of these kind of cultural things swimming around in our head about how we're supposed to act and what we're supposed to do, and I think it's very It's scary and surprising and I think we fight more and more against it, which actually puts you in a position to experience more anger and more frustration and more rage.
So it's really complicated.
Kate: We have this internalized rage. Eventually it just builds up so much that it can only go in so far before it explodes out.
So you feel like you've ditched the idea that you're always going to be calm, which ironically allows you to be more calm, you wrote.
Kathryn: Yes, it does. I think that was like a huge thing for me. To move from, I'm not going to be calm. Then you can invite more calm into your life knowing that it's okay to be angry and frustrated and give space to those feelings so that you can allow more calm or joy, happiness, lots of different feelings, if you're able to give some space to the things that are tough, you're going to have more space for all of the feelings. So that's been really freeing to let go of. It doesn't mean that it doesn't show up though, cause it's always there. Those voices are always hidden in there somewhere.
Kate: Yeah. As far as the second arrow, do you have an example, like a story or anything about how you would use that awareness of the second arrow to drop that self battery or whatever it is?
[00:12:25] Kathryn: So I was reflecting on this this morning, we had a chaotic morning. And I've really worked to calm myself, I'll use that word as a verb, as opposed to a feeling, which calm myself in the mornings.
I'm not a morning person, so getting everyone out of the house, getting people on time, all of the different places. Preschool, elementary school, everyone's going to different places, is stressful. So that's not the time of day that I do best. But I have worked on accepting that and moving forward.
I used to get really frustrated. Being late is something that stresses me out. That would definitely be coming out. I'd be rushing my kids. Kids don't do well when they're rushed. So surprising. They would start to get tense. We'd be feeding off of each other with that.
We'd have these negative interactions, get in the car. And then I’d just feel so crappy about what we just did for the beginning of the day. I'm sending my kids off to school and we've just been sharp with each other and rushing. And, that's not the way I want them to start their day and just getting stuck in that, and while we're doing drop off, thinking about those things. Which didn't set me up then for the rest of the day in a positive way. So I've really let go of what I thought was an orderly, efficient morning and become more flexible with that. So there's less of that kind of rushing and feeling frustrated. So that helps.
But now I think because I've gotten more attuned to feeling the second arrow, I can feel myself going there. Because I think that critical voice is always around. It doesn't matter how much work you do. It's going to show up.
Where the power is: you start to notice it and you don't get stuck. And so then you're able to be like, okay.
In some ways, it's a signal to me that maybe I need to make a repair. Or I need to go do something else. Like I need to go take a break or a breath or get a snack or do some type of care for myself. Come back to my kids: hey, I'm sorry. I was getting stressed out this morning. I know I was rushing you guys.
It's helpful to be able to interpret that signal that something happened and I need to do something. As opposed to just getting stuck in, I did it again. I yelled at them. What a bad day we are starting.
Kate: I sometimes say that the one parenting skill I've really mastered is repair.
Yes. It's my favorite.
I have also been in that place and parents I've worked with have been in that place of feeling almost too bad to do that repair, because it's like a defensive state that we get in. And we can't even talk about it or we feel like bad people, so we don't want to be seen to be that way, even though saying it doesn't make it so. If it's already there, whether we say it or not, it's not really gonna change it. Except that we're acknowledging that our kid didn't make that up. Like that really did happen and we were there together and we both experienced the same thing.
Kathryn: Yeah I yelled.
Kate: People yell. Parents yell. I'm sorry. I don't want to be yelling. But sometimes I'm going to and I can still apologize. You didn't deserve to be yelled at. No one deserves to be yelled at.
Yep.
Anything else on the second arrow?
Kathryn: Oh, I think that is a good summary of that second arrow and how easy it is to get stuck there.
Supporting Neurodivergent Kids Through Routines
[00:16:46] Kate: I know that getting out of the house in the morning is a huge struggle for many parents, especially parents of neurodivergent kids. And especially if their neurodivergent kids are ones that struggle with life skills.
With remembering what order we put our clothes on in the morning or remembering the next step in the process. It is a multi step process, getting ready in the morning.
And it's not about age. It's about that developmental readiness. I have heard many times parents feeling like they didn't do enough or something was wrong. But really, no matter how hard we try or remind our kids, if they're not developmentally ready for those multiple steps, either gross motor wise or cognitively, or whatever it is, they're not going to be able to do it. There have been times, for sure, when Ocean was younger, he had really long hair. And even though he knew how to brush his hair, when we were rushing on a school day, sometimes he would ask me to brush his hair. And I'd be like, sure. And I'd brush his hair. Because I just wanted to take some of the pressure off and I don't feel like he's going to lose that skill just by not doing it a couple of mornings a week when we're rushing to get out the door. Also Velcro was very popular.
Kathryn: Oh yes. Velcro is wonderful.
Kate: So with four kids, I can imagine, especially if some of them do have those challenges, I can imagine it would be pretty hard to get out the door in the morning. Do you have any tips for parents who are struggling with that?
Kathryn: It's such a good question because I now look back several years, probably before my older kids were formally identified. We knew there were struggles and difficulty and sensory things going on. But I don't think we had the clarity that we needed. And certainly that is being flexible with how we can accommodate the morning is part of what has made it easier because there were these shoulds about they should be able to get all their stuff in their backpack. And they should be able to do this independently. And once we got flexible on where we could support, and how we could support ourselves, I think that's another challenge that parents have. If you're accommodating a child, it could put more demands on you, and often does.
So where can we accommodate ourselves? How can we help ourselves feel less stressed? For instance we'll put out the breakfast stuff the night before. And then we're working together. So there is this level of independence where the kids are getting the things that are left out and putting together what's available on the counter. They're not getting everything out of the cupboard and doing all those things. We're meeting in the middle, we're collaborating. And I really look back on those few years ago where I think we were following what we expected, and there was a mismatch. And now that we're more flexible about accommodating, and certain mornings might be more stressful or people are more tired and they do need more assistance.
And so instead of seeing that as some bad thing or that they're never going to be able to brush their hair. They're never going to be able to do this. It's okay to gauge who needs support because the next day they do it by themselves. And so we know it's there.
We know that there's certain level of resources that need to be available. And part of that has just been getting in tune with our kids and their needs. I'm a big fan of Ross Green's work and collaborative proactive solutions. And so that's another area that has helped us with some things in terms of getting out of the house or doing those activities of daily living so that we can understand a little bit more about what's getting in the way. That has been very helpful. So that flexibility and kind of getting in tune with how can we meet everyone's needs, not just the kid who need support.
But if we are going to need an accommodation, how can we support ourselves so that we're also not increasing tons of demands and more things to be done by the adult in the morning?
Kate: Can you give me a specific example of how you might support yourself?
Kathryn: I think doing things the night before for us is helpful. We also let go of certain expectations of ourselves. We, we lay out the kids clothes in the living room, and if people get dressed in the living room, they get dressed in the living room. Instead of having these expectations that things are going to run a certain way, and we realize that may feel different to other people, but it works for us. Letting go of some of those, is this really important? And I think for different families, that might be a really important. You have to kind of evaluate what feels really important for us, and then what can we let go of? That's something that it's just easier for all of us instead of getting everything from anyone's individual rooms and all certain places.
Kate: It's a great hack for a big family. Totally. Yes. And I'm a huge fan of Ross Green's work and I've done a lot of the collaborative work with my son, but there are surely, parents who aren't going to know much about it. I wonder if you have an example of working collaboratively with one of your kids on this morning routine in a way that was helpful.
Kathryn: Yeah. One of my kiddos, some days the shoes and socks are not a problem. Some days the shoes, socks are. Which is funny. I'll go off on a tangent. I'll come back.
That's fine.
Socks were a really hard thing for me as a kid.
Such a huge sensory trigger.
Yeah. And my dad will tell me stories about me and the socks when I was a kid. There are better socks these days. (Get seamless socks.) So yes, coming back to my kiddo that struggles with the socks. You go through that process.
Okay. What is it about the socks? Is it the the multiple steps of getting to where the sock drawer is and getting the sock out and getting the shoes together. Ultimately for my kids, it's mainly sensory, but having that conversation and collaborating around where is the sock trouble?
Because I think for different kids, it's a different thing. It's sometimes it is that multi step or that transition, right? That thing right before it's time to get the socks on, they don't want to stop. And has nothing to do with socks. So going through that what is it in the sock situation that is getting in the way, or making it difficult? And it's a sensory thing.
And so there is a very specific way that the sock feels comfortable so sometimes they're able to do that by themselves and sometimes we need to assist. But I think at this point, because we've talked about it, we thought about it, we're able to help. Our part of it was also buying socks with no seams and trying out different brands and bringing those in and seeing what was going to be the most comfortable.
Kate: Not being like, you will wear the socks because I said so.
Kathryn: Exactly. Really listening.
Kate: Yeah. Because it feels excruciating for them. Those seams. Yeah, that's a great example. Thank you so much.
Building Resilience
All right, Kathryn. What do you most want to be remembered for?
[00:24:28] Kathryn: I want to be remembered for fighting for kids and families, mine included. When I became a psychologist I knew from the very beginning, I had no doubt I wanted to work with kids and families.
I loved doing that as a clinician and I felt really strongly about being able to serve that role and hold hope for families who are dealing with difficult times. And helping, foster resilience in kids. And then I became a parent and, I felt the same thing for my family. How can I support my kids in this world? And make sure that they have the things that they need. So that's also why I enjoy writing about all of these things and hope that they're helpful and supporting families and providing hope.
Kate: I love that. This word resilience. I love it and I use it a lot, but I wonder if you have a definition or an example that you might share.
Kathryn: Yeah. Resilience, it's the bouncing back. Things happen in life and you're able to bounce and bounce back does not mean pop up and I'm good. Nothing happened. This is you fall down first. Things happen. Whether it's in your community or in your home or in your life or in your health. Things happen, and you fall down. And you're able to get back up.
I think there's also this perception that resilient people bounce back quickly. There's people who are late bloomers. Sometimes it takes a while, people struggle for a bit in different ways. Getting back up, even if it takes a little bit of time, is what resilience is to me.
[00:26:20] Kate: Thank you. What are your core values, especially related to parenting?
Kathryn: Curiosity is a big one. It's really important and helpful. Kindness. And creativity, which is something I think I lost track of for a little while in early parenthood. I forgot how important it is to fill my own kind of needs for creativity, but also that I could show up in my parenthood in creative ways that weren't necessarily doing crafts from Pinterest. Things that are authentic to me.
[00:26:58] Kate: Totally. Do you have a parenting memory you'd like to share that brings you joy?
Kathryn: Yes. This last Christmas, we just had a beautiful morning. Early morning at dawn. Our Christmas goes real fast, really early. Everyone is still waking up. We're completely done. So we had just the normal kind of chaos of the morning. It happened to be a really unusually warm Christmas morning. After everyone kind of played for a little bit and had some breakfast, we went to one of our favorite areas where we do some hiking. The kids had gotten a new race car as one of their presents. So they brought that and we're out in this big field, they're playing with their new toy. Everyone is, having a lovely time and felt very connected. As I mentioned in the beginning, sometimes the neurodiversity, they ping off of each other and can struggle to spend extended periods of time together. So it was just really nice.
Everyone was feeling connected. We were outside. Just a really joyful morning. This journey we've been on in the last few years of really starting to understand everyone's needs, so that there are resources to come together for moments like this. People are feeling like they have the things that they need so that we can spend that time together.
Final Thoughts and Where to Connect
[00:28:24] Kate: Yeah, I love that. It really shows how you've used that curiosity and creativity, and kindness, and applied that to your whole family to figure out ways that are creative and don't necessarily color inside the lines. Yeah, more messy. And I love that it comes back around to that idea of being okay with the mess or the mud. Just getting in there and getting messy with it and making mistakes and repairing and rebounding and gaining more resilience. So I really feel like this conversation has created that full circle.
So thank you so much, Kathryn.
Just say out loud where you most would like people to find you and connect with you and especially if they want to see that adorable picture.
Kathryn: Yeah, I have to say, I was, of course, frustrated in that moment, but I knew I needed to capture that because no one would believe it.
Kate: I imagine you getting out the hose and just hosing them all.
Kathryn: I was like, my husband needs to see this.
Kate: You think I'm just sitting around eating bonbons all day. I'll show you.
Kathryn: Exactly. Exactly. See this. Yes.
So people can find me on sub stack. My newsletter is mindful in the mud dot sub stack. com. Come and join the newsletter. It's a fun place.
Kate: I will put all the links in the show notes of course. Sometimes when people are listening, it's good to just hear it so they remember it. Kathryn, thank you so much for this wonderful conversation.
And thank you.
It's great getting to see your face and talk with you.
Kathryn: know. This is when the internet is kind of fun.
Kate: Oh yeah.
Are you feeling overwhelmed parenting your neurodivergent kids during these stressful times? Yeah, me too. Welcome to Mindfully Parenting Atypical Kids, a neurodiversity-affirming parenting podcast where you'll find connection, strategies, and support for your journey.
Thank you for joining Mindfully Parenting Atypical Kids. I really appreciate you walking alongside me.
Connect with Kathryn - Links:
Kathryn Barbash, PsyD - Mindful Mom in the Mud
Thank you for reading!
I hope Kathryn’s story brings you some comfort and practical strategies in your own parenting journey. Remember, it’s okay to not get everything right. Embrace the mess, master the art of repair, and support your kids with flexibility and compassion. You’ve got this.
If you appreciate the connection, support, and strategies that you find here, please go on Apple podcast and share an honest review. That helps other parents find us and connect with us.
awesome listening! thank you!
Great discussion. thanks to both of you!